Hi,
Saw you added your previously added DXVK-workaround back to the Stray page after I removed it. Nothing wrong with that of course, but I wanted to discuss more in-dept if we really want to keep it in there. My reasons against it currently are:
- The game officially supports Windows 10 and above. Your fix allows it maybe to run on Windows 7 while it is not meant to in an unofficial way, which can always lead to compatibility-issues and other issues as these old OS's don't receive any Windows- or GPU-issues anymore. Do we really want to serve people a possible quite bad experience? There is probably a very good reason why developers don't develop these games for these old unsupported systems anymore.
- You mention that it also can solve some issues with Windows 10; your source mentions nothing about that to be honest. So, this mostly seems to be a workaround to get the game running on Windows OS below 10, maybe it should be marked as such if we keep it?
- DXVK is in constant development (you "hardcoded" any links to the 1.10.2 version, which isn't very nice honestly), but what says a future build of DXVK couldn't break the game?
- DXVK is made originally to run on Linux. It was not made for originally and extensively tested on Windows. Using it on Windows will make you miss out on some features of it. And from my testing with some games stability and performance varies quite a bit. As DXVK was not made to run modern games on Windows, I personally don't feel very comfortable with potentially serving people a massive workaround that might result in severe bugs in-game (remember, this was not extensively tested).
- DXVK thus translates the DX11-API calls of this game to Vulkan-API calls. This is in my opinion not just a workaround in this usage-case, as it affects almost all code of the game itself. Do we really feel comfortable providing this "sledgehammer"-solution for this "problem"?
- DXVK can be used for almost any game that does not support Windows 7 to make it run on it (with varying success of course). Do we really want people to add this to wiki-pages for every non-Win-7 it works for? It sounds then more like a throw-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks-solution.....
- The devs of the game just released Hotfix 2, which fixes a boot-related problem that has to do with the GPU-driver. Are you sure your original issue on Windows 10 isn't fixed with it (what was it anyways to begin with? I suspect stutter and lag issues? Sure this doesn't still happen using DXVK after clearing the shader cache?) thus making this workaround superfluous for Windows 10?
- My question also: did you test this solution yourself to check if it fully works ok using both Windows 7 and 10/11?
What do you think? :)
User talk:Kms6872
>The game officially supports Windows 10 and above
The system requirements listed on Steam only say Windows 10. This merely implies Windows 11 compatibility. Games made in say, 2000, might support Windows 9x or 2000. This also *implies* compatibility with later versions of Windows. Obviously, this guarantees nothing, since the official support really only extended to what was tested at the time, which is why much of this wiki is devoted to fixing issues that only occur on modern versions of Windows.
>Your fix allows it maybe to run on Windows 7 while it is not meant to in an unofficial way, which can always lead to compatibility-issues
First, let me make it clear: I needed this fix (on launch day) on Windows *10*. That it allows the game to run on 7 and 8/8.1 is a happy accident that deserves to be noted. I think the way in which I formatted the fix makes this clear.
Second: Most fixes on this wiki come with drawbacks.
For example, take the fix for "Image ghosting while objects are moving". This issue is caused by temporal anti-aliasing (TAA). TAA is quite controversial because it has massive drawbacks, such as ghosting, motion blur, and a much softer overall image. Despite these drawbacks, many games today are designed around them, and don't offer toggling TAA off as an option.
Stray is one of these games. If you experience ghosting and want to remove it, you have to use a workaround to disable TAA, something the developers clearly do not support. If they did, they would have given an option to disable it in the graphics settings. Disabling TAA in Stray gives you a whole host of other problems, primarily shimmering, which is most prominent in fur.
Users who have issues with ghosting have to decide between sticking with having TAA on and having ghosting and other issues caused by TAA, or disabling TAA thus eliminating ghosting, but suffering extremely ugly fur because the developers built the entire game's graphics around TAA. For better or worse, making tradeoffs in this manner is part and parcel for PC gaming.
Any issues caused by running Stray via DXVK on Windows 7 (of which there don't seem to be any given numerous happy comments on the Steam guide) are simply irrelevant given that the game doesn't even boot to the menu without this fix.
>these old OS's don't receive any Windows- or GPU-issues anymore
Windows updates are irrelevant. GPU updates can improve compatibility with newer titles and improve performance but generally aren't necessary. Personally, in the past, I've gone at least 2 years without updating GPU drivers, simply because I didn't need to.
>Do we really want to serve people a possible quite bad experience?
Again, this is part and parcel of PC gaming. Users will unfortunately have to determine what conditions are optimal for playing the game for themselves. Is this not the entire purpose of this wiki? To fix odd issues here and there that prevent people from playing the game?
>You mention that it also can solve some issues with Windows 10; your source mentions nothing about that to be honest
The issue I had was fundamentally the same issue as Windows 7 users: the game wouldn't get past the initial loading screen. Installing DXVK resolved the issue for me. I don't see why the source needs to be 100% descriptive. Would there be an issue if I cited a source for a fix that mentioned a specific graphics card that I didn't have, but it worked for me?
>So, this mostly seems to be a workaround to get the game running on Windows OS below 10
It isn't so black and white. "Mostly" is irrelevant. The fix works.
>maybe it should be marked as such if we keep it?
It already is, as a note. Because the fix worked for me, and I'm using Windows 10, I think it's quite inappropriate to label it *exclusively* as a fix for playing the game on older versions of Windows.
>you "hardcoded" any links to the 1.10.2 version, which isn't very nice honestly
I in fact did not hardcode links to the current version. I should have used generic version numbers for the folder navigation instruction, yes (and will fix that now), but the link I provided clearly links to the releases page that lists the current version.
>what says a future build of DXVK couldn't break the game?
If that's the case, then the fix can be updated. By the same logic, do you suggest we wait until 5 years from now until the game no longer receives updates of any kind, since any hotfixes, patches, or updates might make invalidate any fixes in the article?
>DXVK is made originally to run on Linux. It was not made for originally and extensively tested on Windows
DXVK is cross-platform. Much like how Google Chrome was originally Windows only but now has extended support to Mac OS and Linux, DXVK provides DLL files that obviously work on Windows.
Plenty of Windows games benefit from DXVK and as such DXVK is recommended as a fix on this very wiki. In fact, Grand Theft Auto IV is one such game for Windows that basically requires DXVK to get reasonable performance on modern video cards.
>Using it on Windows will make you miss out on some features of it
Which features? Are those features relevant to getting the game to get past the initial loading screen?
>And from my testing with some games stability and performance varies quite a bit.
Again, this is the case with fixes and workarounds, *period*. "Your mileage may vary" is practically the SOP for PC gaming.
>I personally don't feel very comfortable with potentially serving people a massive workaround that might result in severe bugs in-game (remember, this was not extensively tested).
If they're having an issue that prevents them from getting to the main menu, and no such issues have been reported (I've played through half the game without issue with this fix), I don't see the issue. Either they can play the game, or they can't.
>DXVK thus translates the DX11-API calls of this game to Vulkan-API calls. This is in my opinion not just a workaround in this usage-case, as it affects almost all code of the game itself. Do we really feel comfortable providing this "sledgehammer"-solution for this "problem"?
This is how dgVoodoo2 works as well, which is the foundation for getting many, many, many games to work, and is listed as such on this very wiki. If some other "can't get to main menu" fix for Windows 10 users appears, by all means, prioritize it over DXVK. But why get rid of it entirely? Are edgecases *not* the bread and butter of fixes for modern titles?
>DXVK can be used for almost any game that does not support Windows 7 to make it run on it
That's just not true. Most games that explicitly don't support Windows 7 will read the Windows version and prevent the game from launching entirely. To my knowledge it's a small handful of games that don't bother to do this, and thus a workaround is possible only because the Windows 10 requirement is simply tied to use of DirectX 12.
>Are you sure your original issue on Windows 10 isn't fixed with [hotfix 2]
I haven't played the game since the patch released. I'll want to finish the game before mucking around with my current configuration (since I had ghosting from TAA, and eventually it resolved after 45 minutes of toying with the settings) but I'll test it when I'm finished.
>what was it anyways to begin with? I suspect stutter and lag issues
No, the game wouldn't load the main menu. It would show... something (can't remember if it was the Stray logo or disclaimer text) but the menu options wouldn't show up.
>this workaround superfluous for Windows 10?
We won't really know it's superfluous until the exact issue can be determined. De-prioritize the fix if another is found, but I see no reason to outright remove it.
>did you test this solution yourself to check if it fully works ok using both Windows 7 and 10/11?
I tested Windows 10 only. The instructions I followed were identical to the Steam guide geared towards Windows 7 users. Windows 8.1 users in the comments said the fix worked for them. I think that's suffice. There's so many variables that even if I were to test it for myself, it wouldn't mean the fix would be for everyone.
I'll answer later today in full, but can say this: your TAA-example; TAA is an option that you can't disable in some games anymore (like Stray or Doom Eternal), because it became an integral part of the game. Developers know that some effects break with it disabled and thus then decide to not directly allow you to disable it. Also, TAA has come such a long way and improved so much, that ghosting is generally not regarded as that large of an issue anymore. But still, nice to mention how to disable it here with its drawbacks of course (which I know was done already.) I'll respond later why this TAA-disabling fix is in contrast with the DXVK-fix in my opinion :)
Added some notes, especially about the possible drawbacks, just to inform people :) Will thus answer your questions later in full :)
Can you add yourself as a reference for it solving your boot-issue on Windows 10? As currently the source only mentions that older-OS-fix and would be nice to have the sources complete of course.
>TAA is an option that you can't disable in some games anymore (like Stray or Doom Eternal), because it became an integral part of the game. Developers know that some effects break with it disabled and thus then decide to not directly allow you to disable it
I address this in my other post here. For some people, TAA causes problems. I know, because Stray had it *really* bad for me, at least initially. In the opening area, I saw multiple afterimages of the player's cat by simply rotating my camera at half-speed. After 45 minutes of toying with settings (including experimenting with disabling TAA, which I decided wasn't an option as fur was proper ****ed without TAA), it disappeared, but I have no idea what caused the issue to resolve.
The point I was trying to make is that sometimes the devs really don't know best. It's likely that someone is going to have ghosting bad enough that they would rather deal with the drawbacks of TAA being disabled (assuming that for them, the drawbacks would even exist. Who knows, right? There's far too many variables.)
>TAA has come such a long way and improved so much, that ghosting is generally not regarded as that large of an issue anymore
I don't find this to be the case. Granted, I'm sure a lot more games use TAA than I realize, but the only time I find out a game uses TAA is when I see ghosting and have to try disabling it.
>Can you add yourself as a reference for it solving your boot-issue on Windows 10?
How do I do this? I don't have any off-site profiles I'd like to link myself to here.
> How do I do this? I don't have any off-site profiles I'd like to link myself to here.
Been bizzy the last few days, will answer to our initial discussion (related to the TAA example) later. But regarding citing yourself as the source: https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/PCGamingWiki:Editing_guide/References#Self-verified_fixes_and_settings You can just use your username on PCGW as the source. See many many examples on other PCGW-pages :)
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