So.. I was mumbling over Omkiron and the no deadzones problem.
After a hint of one of the ReactOS contributor, I realized: there's nothing actually broken.
Controllers with analog sticks just weren't a thing back then (only a year after Sony started to bundle Dualshocks with PS1).
In March 1999 Microsoft had no kind of recommendation on this side, even if some of their own products had built-in accelerometers that could hardly be kept to 0.
After checking dx3, dx5, dx6, dx7, dx8, dx9 documentation I realized that if any, the CLSID drop made in the latest update DI ever got could explain why Xinput Plus (dinput8.dll, remember?) doesn't work. Older interfaces aren't accessed.
dinput8.dll
So... I just guess we need a tool that can work with that. And I wonder if the mapper introduced in dx8 also supported remapping in older versions.
trivia: dead zones support was present in the API starting from dx1
EDIT: I wonder why XInput+ claims to support DInput5 and newer (which Omikron indeed is).. but it doesn't workEDIT2: Ok, it seems there are precisely 4 version of DirectInput interface: 0x0300, 0x0500 (aforementioned), 0x0700 and 0x0800EDIT3: other possibly relevant info EDIT 4: other hacks
antimicroWhat do you think? It's quite good imo and it works even under linux.
Hopefully one day, we'll have just one definitive solution, better than all the others
EDIT: TIL that Joy2Key and JoyToKey are not necessairly the same thing
Does anyone read these talk pages other than me? :v
If it works better than the rest already then cool.
I didn't even notice the "Today I learned I learnt".
So, basically the "spinning camera" issue is pretty universal thing, but because it's so universal and is 99% of cases caused by controller of some sort, that's why I put it into controller article and simply linked from game specific articles and steam community discussions to controller article. And that is why first note was "if not used, unplug" as that's the most easiest way to fix the issue if you weren't going to use to controller to play that particular title. (though now that the title is changed, all those links are broken)
In some scenarios it would also make menus scroll the menu items automatically (if assumed right stick is also used for menu item selection) or if game had literally zero deadzone on controller, that's why only calibrating may not help. That's why so specific titling as well as it's not exactly controller acting randomly, it's controller acting correctly but showing really specific behaviour with camera because of games controller detection and bindings. This however is problem with many many many titles and usually descriped as camera spinning issue (just google "steamcommunity camera spin" and you can get tons of results for tons of differend games) so that's why I also used it as SEO thing.
Jims video was first one that came to mind to demonstrate the issue clearly without need to record footage myself, latest game that has tons and tons of complaings about camera spinning is Dr. Langeskov, The Tiger, and The Terribly Cursed Emerald: A Whirlwind Heist.
I also somwhat disagree on removing points that why the issue happens and having x360ce mentioned as primarily fix (won't work at all in most scenarios, that's why it was last fixbox). Reason why I think wiki is good place for this kind of thing is for users to actually aknowledge why the issue is happening. "Do it exactly like this" is the youtube video/blogger approach which only leads to user relying on that singlurar, maybe worse/outdated fixing methods they saw/read about, instead of knowing why the thing happens, what the fix does and what to do if it gets broken/outdated. "Do it like this" is also the reason why so many sites and people still recommend MotionInJoy for PS3 controllers.
E: Overall article does seem bit cleaner, even though first reaction to 100+ edits in couple days will be really intimidating.
This is not really related to the post above, but just an editing related thingy.
I'll just add that I simply cleaned it up, I really don't know everything about every single issue so just add back anything which needs to be added back, and move what's bad somewhere else, or remove anything that's bad. I was simply trying to remove those walls of text and I was trying to give a real purpose to the page, I often cannot really test everything in these pages seeing as it would take me too long, or I don't have what I need to, so I simply re-write the existing contents of the pages for the most part, which other users have left behind. I don't have time to read this post right now seeing as I have to do a thingy but I'll read it tomorrow.
Also I only made that general section at the top seeing as I didn't know where to place it, and I called it General seeing as I didn't know how to split up the Windows\Linux thingy so I just added them togheter. So like any other utilities which are available on multiple OSs can be placed under the General section, anything OS specific on the specific OS sections, I wrote this in a rush so idk if it's clear.
TL:DR: I just cleaned the page up, I don't really know what you are talking about, you'd have to speak to the other editors who added these infos I gathered after cleaning the pages, if not then just fix whatever bothers you. I mean I do understand, but I just wish people would stop blaming me for all this stuff, it happens way too often when I cleanup pages, but I kinda expect people to help me a little bit, sorry, I'd like to correct any bad infos but I don't have what I need for some stuff.
-Snip- Wait no I got it wrong, ehh the formatting on these pages sucks.
I really do not remember what I removed, and that X360CE thing was mentioned by someone else so I left it in, the page was a clusterfuck so I kinda got lost while cleaning it up, so add, whatever needs to be added back. Some other editors left other conflicting infos.
Okay I understand why I'm so god damn confused. I'm sorry but these fixboxes are way too vague and general to anyone else but you. You really need to improve them a little bit, if I didn't find them clear then other users will most certainly not find them clear either. http://i.imgur.com/dhN7CXP.png
Right now I am extremely confused about most of the things you said, I really thing you kinda get sometimes too lengthy with your wiki explanations in the articles, and to the average guy and even me "see game-specific article" is extremely vague, I literally have no idea what to look for if you tell me that, that's a god awful solution\fixbox, I thought that was supposed to be a link originally. The sections are also really weird, I still have no idea how you even wish to approach this, the way you explained it is really confusing to me.
In 100% of causes it's caused by "whatever thing a game is reading inputs from".
Aside of this, as I was saying here it all depends on what you consider standard. Game being pedantic or controllers being off-center?
...
Ok, I'm kidding, of course the problem is game working unexpected (and while you can play deadzone-aware games with digital controllers, the contrary is awful). And having no care of deadzones is game-specif though, so absolutely it should be mentioned in each page.
And in Controller page too. For as much as probably no XInput game suffers of this issue (given testing happened with X360 controller). Still mentioning x360ce (or Durazno or whatever) is worth. And same, and even more, in the DirectInput case.
Does anyone know what those two thingies do, I have no idea what to write under them seeing as I don't have OS X or an Xbox 360 Controller. Also I can't add propers instructions for the HOTAS thing, no walls of text in the page anymore please, add a fixbox.
Controller Mate seems to be a usual mouse/keyboard to controller program. I have already moved the Xbox 360 Controller driver to the controller's page.
There probably isn't much to say about HOTAS beyond the limitations that were previously described in the multiple controllers section (which would also apply to other situations like mixing wheels and pedals). A HOTAS controller has standard controller inputs (buttons, axes, hat switches) so will function as expected (there are even some XInput models).
Besides, the page may even be more.. appealing and less.. textual than 6 months ago. Though really, sections are really shallow.
I mean.. we should think: "what could the average Joe need first?" Drivers? Info about APIs? Info about keyboard-only games? Would this make more sense in a dedicated page?And Durazno is everything, but a DirectInput wrapper. If you don't/have the time to know what you are writing, stop it or write in the talk pages
EDIT: Xinput Plus probably address all issues altogether
Thinking too much about average Joe and not giving detailed options to power user is what ruined PC gaming i recent decade. Average PC gamer is no average Joe. PC gaming wiki is about deep tweaks, deeps tweaks is not something that average Joe can handle. And what are you talking about? Did someone call Durazno a Dinput wrapper?
We should always presume that the user might be doing certain things for the first time, I try to keep my instructions complete but easy to follow without going over pointless details. I seriously don't give a shit about how certain things work once in a while, I'd rather just get to the point and be done with the, thingy I was doing. It's worse when someone gives you half assed instructions and expects you to figure out the other half by yourself, that happens way too often on other wikis, or anywhere really.
This page is a mess but I have no idea how to clean it up myself, I just don't know enough things about it to make the page look nice.
Edit: Also it's good to cater to a wide audience.
Unrelated but, holy fuck those keypoints are way too overkill. There's like 15 of them :v
Did someone call Durazno a Dinput wrapper?Yes, somebody did.
And for the records I was exactly saying that the page has been a little too much streamlined (Xinput+ description is a bit too verbose though)
PC gaming doesn't need to be elitist either. What I'm wondering is: how may we handle the implicit reminder that if game is using DirectInput and you have a x360-like controller, you'll need these solutions?
Since it's a problem with every DI game and technically with OS/driver itself, it shouldn't be mentioned everywhere (it's not an issue on the game side). But then you'd have the case of the casual noob which just checks "NFSU2" or "TW3" and just reads those pages (the later of this having the inverse problem with Xinput of course)
DInput should redirect to generic information about it like it was mostly used in year etc. and you can use those wrappers for your XInput controller blahblah. Since I doubt DInput/XInput checkmark will be added to Input settings template (haha API section) This page could be used for that kind of stuff yeah.
It wouldn't still be enough.
I mean, who tells you you'd need additional step just because you choose a X360 controller instead of a PS4 one?I mean, it's not intuitive.
Similar considerations also apply to DirectSound hardware buffers then
Pretty sure that'll become obvious when the controller can't be fully mapped.
Alternate drivers are controller-specific so should be covered on individual controller pages rather than the central controller page.
What's the cleanest and easiest way of doing that. For games such as Metal Gear Rising, where you need a controller to input the Konami Code.
I used vJoy last time I wanted to do something like this for Windows games.
For DOS games the DOSBox mapper is fine (you'll need to set joysticktype= manually--on auto it will only report a controller if one is actually detected).
joysticktype=
auto
From what I understood vJoy needs to install a driver though, I was hoping for something a little bit more portable, I mean if I could remove it on the fly then that would be cool.
Any normal method would involve a driver or something to have a controller show up. AutoHotkey can send controller inputs but it probably also needs an actual controller to be present for this.
Sorry I was being silly at the time, I was afraid it might be incomptible with some other stuff, I'll have to try this eventually.
What is the point of this section? Was some of it deleted or something? All I see is mention that controller program needs to be elevated if game is elevated, but no info what program we are talking about.
Check the notes of the edit I did yesterday. You'll see where everything went crazy.
Anyway, indeed, it's just stupid to mention, considering that's one of the things that should be taken for granted.
How could I do that?
Oh cmon. Read the other ton of stuff I wrote here.
I guess they are DI games and your XI controller can't pass both. Use XInput+
I tried Xinput plus already, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. The game is Bugs Bunny: Lost in Time. And I can barely read what you write, it's a big mess.
You need to set up the triggers to work as buttons rather than axes (I don't know which wrappers have this). Another option is to use a controller program (e.g. Xpadder) for the buttons that don't work and the native support for everything else.
XInput+ can already map triggers as buttons. And even remap them to other axis (as it would be preferable), with none of the normal limitations you would expect from something with "XInput" in the name
How to check?There are 2 methods:
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\DirectInput
Ok, no dice.
This is the right way.
Games using the XInput API have to call one of its DLLs. Some games/engines use other methods, e.g. Raw Input (as with the Unity engine), so the absence of XInput does not always equal use of the DirectInput API.
Perhaps checking imports is better. I use CFF Explorer. See whether xinput*.dll or dinput*.dll is being imported.
Funnily, even DirectInput only games can have xinput imports. And I guess viceversa too.
After much, very much philosophical thinking I came out with this.
What do you think?
I was planning on updating the Controller pages to use the new "Controller:" namespace Soeb kindly provided, but I've been bogged down with other things lately. I still plan on doing it myself in the near future if no one else does, but I figured I would at least give others the chance should they wish to convert the old pages to a newer unified format.
If you want to contribute, please try to make the articles follow the layout of the Controller:Xbox 360 Controller page I made, as that's the general template I'm going for with controller articles. Feel free to have discussions on this Talk page if you'd like to suggest any changes to it, or notice any exceptions with controller pages you're interested in making.
Anyway, here are all the older versions. If you'd like to, please update them to the new layout, put them in the proper Controller namespace, add an infobox, etc:
Controller:DualShock 3:
[[File:PlayStation3-DualShock3.jpg|thumb|PlayStation 3 controllers work with most games but require initial setup, unlike [[Xbox 360 Controller]]s.]] '''Key points''' {{++}} Controllers can be used as both wired (with a USB Mini B cable) and wireless (via Bluetooth). {{--}} Requires initial setup to show up as a controller. {{++}} Works with most games once set up correctly. ==Windows== {{ii}} The central Home button acts as an Xbox 360 Guide button and cannot be used in games for other functions. {{ii}} [[x360ce]] can be used to adjust controller settings and button assignments. {{Fixbox|1= {{Fixbox/fix|Install XInput Wrapper}} # Uninstall MotionJoy or Better DS3 if either is currently installed. # Download [http://forums.pcsx2.net/Thread-XInput-Wrapper-for-DS3-and-Play-com-USB-Dual-DS2-Controller XInput Wrapper]. # Extract with [http://www.7-zip.org 7-Zip] (or similar) somewhere convenient. # Run <code>SCPDriver.exe</code> and install the driver. (If using XP/Vista make sure to check the <code>force install</code> option.) }} == Mac OS X == {{Fixbox|1= {{Fixbox/fix|Add controller to Bluetooth Favorites - Mac OS X 10.7 (Lion) and newer}} # Plug in USB # Ignore pairing Request # Go to Bluetooth Preferences (within about 15 seconds). # Select "Connected" and "Configured" (but not "Paired"). You're looking for "PlayStation3 controller". # Add the controller to the Favorites. }} {{Fixbox|1= {{Fixbox/fix|Install Ps3Controller - Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) and earlier}} Download and install [http://tattiebogle.net/index.php/ProjectRoot/Ps3Controller Ps3Controller]. }} == Linux == {{Fixbox|1= {{Fixbox/fix|Install QtSixA}} Download and install [http://qtsixa.sourceforge.net/ QtSixA]. }} {{References}} [[Category:Hardware]] [[Category:Controller]]
Controller:Logitech Extreme 3D Pro:
{{stub}} '''Key points''' {{ii}} Throttle, twist, POV hat and 12 buttons. {{ii}} Right-handed ergonomics. ==Drivers== [http://www.logitech.com/en-us/support/extreme-3d-pro?section=downloads Logitech Gaming Software] (Windows and Mac OS X) ==Issues fixed== ===Set mouse axes on joystick=== The Logitech Gaming Software does not support using mouse axes with this controller; for alternatives see [[controller with keyboard-only game]]. [[Category:Controller]]
Controller:Logitech Gamepad F310:
{{stub}} '''Key points''' {{++}} Input mode compatibility switch on the back of the controller; use X for XInput games and D for DirectInput games (see [[Controller#XInput vs. DirectInput|XInput vs. DirectInput]]).<ref name="input mode">[http://logitech-en-amr.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/21696 Using the input mode switch on the Gamepad F310 to select DirectInput or XInput - Logitech FAQ]</ref> {{ii}} Does not support vibration (unlike the [[Logitech Rumble Gamepad F510]] and [[Logitech Wireless Gamepad F710]]). ==Issues unresolved== ===Large deadzone=== The F310 has a Logitech created deadzone of around 20% of the analog sticks. This means that the controller can feel unresponsive and jerky, as subtle movements are not registered. This is not a major issues for games that do not force their own deadzones, but for titles like [[Dead Space]] which do they become almost unplayable, as only the most extreme analog stick movements are detected by the game. ==Issues fixed== ===Incorrect controls in some games=== {{Fixbox|1= {{Fixbox/fix|Set input mode switch|ref=<ref name="input mode"/>}} # Exit the game. # Set the input mode switch on the back; use X for XInput (most recent games) or D for DirectInput (older games). # Restart the game. {{ii}} If you change the input mode while the game is running it might still not see the controller correctly. }} {{References}} [[Category:Controller]]
Controller:Logitech Rumble Gamepad F510:
{{stub}} [[File:Logitech Rumblepad F510, 2.jpg|thumb|The Logitech Rumble Gamepad F510 features vibration and compatibility with XInput games.]] '''Key points''' {{++}} Input mode compatibility switch on the back; use X for XInput games and D for DirectInput games (see [[Controller#XInput vs. DirectInput|XInput vs. DirectInput]]).<ref name="input mode">[http://logitech-en-amr.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/20400 Using the input mode switch on the Rumble Gamepad F510 to select DirectInput or XInput - Logitech FAQ]</ref> {{ii}} Available in wireless form as the [[Logitech Wireless Gamepad F710]]. ==Issues fixed== ===Incorrect controls in some games=== {{Fixbox|1= {{Fixbox/fix|Set input mode switch|ref=<ref name="input mode"/>}} # Exit the game. # Set the input mode switch on the back; use X for XInput (most recent games) or D for DirectInput (older games). # Restart the game. {{ii}} If you change the input mode while the game is running it might still not see the controller correctly. }} {{References}} [[Category:Controller]]
Controller:Logitech Wireless Gamepad F710:
{{stub}} '''Key points''' {{++}} Input mode compatibility switch on the top; use X for XInput games and D for DirectInput games (see [[Controller#XInput vs. DirectInput|XInput vs. DirectInput]]).<ref name="input mode">[http://logitech-en-amr.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/21360 Using the input mode switch on the F710 to select DirectInput or XInput - Logitech FAQ]</ref> {{ii}} Available in wired form as the [[Logitech Rumble Gamepad F510]]. ==Issues fixed== ===Incorrect controls in some games=== {{Fixbox|1= {{Fixbox/fix|Set input mode switch|ref=<ref name="input mode"/>}} # Exit the game. # Set the input mode switch on the top; use X for XInput (most recent games) or D for DirectInput (older games). # Restart the game. {{ii}} If you change the input mode while the game is running it might still not see the controller correctly. }} {{References}} [[Category:Controller]]
Controller:Microsoft SideWinder Strategic Commander:
{{stub}} [[File:Ms sidewinder sc right.jpg|thumb|The Strategic Commander features programmable functions including keystroke recording.]] '''Key points''' {{++}} Programmable for a wide variety of functions. {{ii}} Use [http://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/21-strategic-engine/ Strategic Engine] for modern versions of Windows (the original software is no longer compatible). '''General information''' {{mm}} [http://wayback.archive.org/web/20021216090451/http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/sidewinder/devices/SComm/default.asp Official site] (archived) ==Issues fixed== ===Use with modern systems=== The original software is not compatible with modern versions of Windows; use [http://community.pcgamingwiki.com/files/file/21-strategic-engine/ Strategic Engine] instead. [[Category:Controller]]
Thanks,
I should also note that we can use images directly from the Wikimedia Commons without having to upload them manually to PCGW, so you can use images of controllers from Evan Amos' rather large collection here.
